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25 February 2008 @ 07:26 pm
I'm doing research...again  
There is something from Jus in Bello that I can't get off my mind, actually it's driving me insane!!!

Okay, the scene in which the first demon who appears in 3x12 shoots Dean, still bugs me. Why the hell did he not shoot Sam. I mean isn't Sam supposed to be the one Lilith wants gone because she doesn't like the competition? If so, the demon should have aimed for Sam instead. Why shoot Dean? I asked myself that question over a hundred times but I couldn't think of a reason. So I switched to "Sam-mode" and started researching, and that's what I came up with:

The Church of Satan incorporates Lilith in her kabbalistic Zohar role as the wife of Samael (Satan)

First of all, I had no clue that SAMael was a synonym for satan. But that actually makes sense. Maybe she wants to unite with Sam in some way to evolve their powers and for that she has to kill Dean because he would never accept that.

Lilith and Samael are featured in the symbol of the church of Satan, the Baphomet sigil

The Pentagram, which in Gnostic schools is called the Blazing Star, is the sign of intellectual omnipotence and autocracy, and it is also the symbol of Satanism. It is the Star of the Magi; it is the sign of the Word made flesh; and, according to the direction of its points, this absolute magical symbol represents order or confusion, the Divine Lamb of Ormuz and St. John, or the accursed goat of Mendes. It is initiation or profanation; it is Lucifer or Vesper, the star of morning or evening. It is Mary or Lilith, victory or death, day or night. The Pentagram with two points in the ascendant represents Satan as the goat of the Sabbath; when one point is in the ascendant, it is the sign of the Saviour. By placing it in such a manner that two of its points are in the ascendant and one is below, we may see the horns, ears, and beard of the hierarchic Goat of Mendes, when it becomes the sign of infernal evocations.

-1855-56 & 61, translated into English by A. E. Waite under the title Transcendental Magic

So, Lilith and SAMael(Sam?)are connected somehow and the two of them together are symbolic for confusion, profanation, death and night. That sounds like something a demon would want to achieve, doesn't it? I'm thinking that Lilith needs Sam and that she wants him alive. I guees that in the last episode she wanted her followers to get him, not to kill him. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?
Current Mood: thoughtfulthoughtful
A: Supernaturalladybird_7 on February 25th, 2008 07:32 pm (UTC)
Michi, where do you find all this stuff? Quite impressive! I have have to think about and get back to you later. :)
Michaela: Sam [lol]michaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 08:10 pm (UTC)
Wikipedia and Google are my bestest friends in the whole wide world *lol*
tinkabell007: spn - helloootinkabell007 on February 25th, 2008 07:37 pm (UTC)
Oh, I get all tingly when you go all Sam-mode here *g*

And I love your speculation - most to the fact that you can absolutely be right. First I had the theory that Dean is Sam's weakness (we heard that quite a lot lately) and by eliminating the only thing Sam is living for it would be much easier to kill him! But actually, combined with your theory, it would just make him realize that there's nothing holing him back anymore, no one left in his life... and THIS would bring him a step closer to the dark side... the "thing" he's supposed to become.
Michaela: Sam/Dean [weapons]michaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 08:14 pm (UTC)
Sam would definitely change a lot from what we saw in Mystery spot. I think there's a fine line between being numb and being bad. But on the other hand, why now? Why couldn't Lilith wait until Dean drops dead on his own accord? Does she even know about the deal???
(no subject) - tinkabell007 on February 25th, 2008 08:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Marion: Dean_Brokenfaith_mars on February 25th, 2008 07:44 pm (UTC)
Dean is definitely in the way. I heard that stuff about Lilith and Samael before (15 years ago). I just forgot about it. *head desk*
Michaela: Sam and Dean [Hug]michaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
I've never heard about Lilith before, but my sister pointed out the she was Adam's first wife. After hearing that I became curious about her.
ckllckll on February 25th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
Ok, that really creeps me, lol
Thank you for this. I suspect that Sam is connected with Lillith in a way.
If you noticed, in the fight demon scenes, Sam had black eyes
Michaela: Ruby 2 [looking down]michaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 08:22 pm (UTC)
Really??? I didn't notice that. *runs off to watch*

Sorry for creeping you out :)
(no subject) - ckll on February 26th, 2008 05:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tinkabell007 on February 25th, 2008 08:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ckll on February 26th, 2008 05:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tinkabell007 on February 26th, 2008 06:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
LIFE IS MEANINGLESS - SIGNED T.BEAR: days of our lives_Jenpsychotic_scam on February 25th, 2008 08:24 pm (UTC)
One of fandoms many Sam! *squishes*
This is brilliant work looking this up o_o I'm definately intrigued. Very considerate researching <3

Now, all we need is to know her intentions other than the obvious <_<
Michaela: Sam [Wears Make Upmichaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 08:28 pm (UTC)
It all makes sense somehow. I'm very curious about Lilith's intentions too. Why the hell do we have to wait until April *head desk*
(no subject) - psychotic_scam on February 25th, 2008 08:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Teresa Elaine: Evil!Sammy - Smirktiekey_blossom on February 25th, 2008 08:25 pm (UTC)
OMG! *flails* I'm scared.. I totally went all O.O.. when I saw the symbol.
Michaela: Evil!Sammichaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 08:30 pm (UTC)
You are right, it really is scary. Let's hope it's not coming to that.
(no subject) - tiekey_blossom on February 26th, 2008 05:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
Jas: 3.11 ~ Sam _ Dark Sidecrystalchain on February 25th, 2008 08:30 pm (UTC)
"I totally went all O.O.. when I saw the symbol."

Same here.. damn it that scares the hell outta me but thanks for the research.. it's rly interesting.
Michaela: Evil!Sammichaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 09:37 pm (UTC)
You are very welcome! This whole thing scares me too.
OhBooth: Ruby Psychoticohbooth on February 25th, 2008 08:36 pm (UTC)
Love your header BTW! :) Before I get all rambly and forget to say that. I think the demon shot Dean first because he is viewed as the biggest threat to them (they probably still think they can sway Sam) AND Dean is the long time hunter, so, really taking him out first was probably a tactical move and nothing more.

Secondly, I don't think that Lilith wants to unite with Sam, I think she is going for the gold all by herself. TWO demos now (Tammi and Ruby) have both confirmed that Lilith wants Sam to go ByeBye, Tammi almost succeeded in doing it, she was interrupted by Ruby and Dean, or else Sam would have been toast. And I don't think Tammi would kill Sam off if Lilith wanted him alive, because by the way they talk about/we've seen Lilith, she is not a demon to cross, even if you are a demon.

So, that is my long winded way of saying I am not sure (cause of the whole Demon's lie thing) but I think Lilith wants the power for herself, and is out for Winchester blood, all of it most likely. :)

Good research though, I did the same thing when I found out the 'name' of the big bad threat! :) Great minds...
Michaela: Rubymichaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 09:45 pm (UTC)
Love your header BTW! :)

Thanks, but I just changed it *g* But I love Ruby so much, I can't get enough of that woman.

You make very good points. Therefore I justed rewatched the scene with Tammi and now I'm even more cofused, because she is talking about a HE and Ruby is talking about Lilith, which she says is a female demon. OMG, what if there isn't only one demon who wants to be a leader!? *lol*
(no subject) - ohbooth on February 25th, 2008 10:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Lauralastark on February 25th, 2008 08:40 pm (UTC)
this is kinda creepy...
Thank you for all those researches !
Michaela: Sam [lol]michaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 09:45 pm (UTC)
You are very welcome! This is actually fun for me *g*
johnnyjoshjohnnyjosh on February 25th, 2008 08:55 pm (UTC)
'It is Mary or Lilith, victory or death, day or night'
For some reason this one really sticks out and reminds me of Ruby's words about Sam's mother. Anybody else pondering that part?
Michaela: Ruby 2 [looking down]michaela3105 on February 25th, 2008 08:58 pm (UTC)
It is Mary or Lilith

You are absolutely right. There definitely is something about Mary we don't know. Maybe she was some kind of counterpart to the demons.
(no subject) - johnnyjosh on February 25th, 2008 09:01 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Ladyhumpcherry87a on February 25th, 2008 09:49 pm (UTC)
yeah, when they said lilith i remembered like that i heard that she was like Adam's first wife and she didn't like to be "under the man" so she left eden and met satan. spooky the whole thing lol
Living In Your Head Without Anything To Numb You..godamnarmsrace on February 25th, 2008 11:51 pm (UTC)
Yeah, when I was watching I said 'LMFAO Sam's bride is a little girl!' *snorts*

I've always thought there was more to Dean and his role in terms of the bigger picture - I mean think about it, he should have died many times before and yet here he is still. Someone one is looking out for him (besides Sam *grins*) and wants him around and since the badies keep trying to kill him, I'm leaning towards a good higher power vs an evil one.

Maybe it stems back to the deal Mary is meant to have made, because it would explain a lot.

Michaela: Sam [lol]michaela3105 on February 26th, 2008 05:24 pm (UTC)
Yeah, when I was watching I said 'LMFAO Sam's bride is a little girl!' *snorts*


Maybe you are right and there is a higher power, but I'm not sure if the writers of SPN want to go there. And I'm not sure if I would want to see it!?!? But I agree that Dean has a role to play, I'm quite sure about that too.
(no subject) - godamnarmsrace on February 27th, 2008 12:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
Kristy: Latin!Samnicenicegirl on February 25th, 2008 11:54 pm (UTC)
so, i had two different thoughts, but they basically were the same when it comes down to it with you.

#1 i figured he shot Dean because he was closer, so he figured "get him out of the way, then get to Sam"

but #2, as the episode went on(and mind you, i really hadn't researched a WHOLE lot before the episode, i only knew of Lilith from my own readings and things i've done before with religion and so on) i had the same feeling. that she actually wants to join Sam.

but then again, Lilith was pretty much the first feminist there was, so i'm not really sure if my theory would be correct.

and i like the fact that we both pretty much got to the same conclusion, even tho by different means! this is one of the reasons i like this fandom so much, because we get SO into it and we do research and everything just to know what's going on with a tv show lol. keeps the brain from going mushy!
Michaela: Sam/Dean [weapons]michaela3105 on February 26th, 2008 05:27 pm (UTC)
Lilith was pretty much the first feminist there was, so i'm not really sure if my theory would be correct.

Yes, you are right about that. But that's just one of the many legends about her. And who says she really wants Sam, maybe she just wants his POWERS!?
not_sally on February 26th, 2008 03:16 am (UTC)
I think you've got some mad research skills, that's what I think.
Rachel Martinrachel_martin64 on February 26th, 2008 04:58 am (UTC)
Wow, very cool. Very interesting theory!